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January 10, 2004

Comments

Eve Garrard

Thanks for this really interesting analysis. Your proposal that the common feature between Chomsky's linguistics and his politics is the slide from methodology to ontology sounds very convincing.

Joe Baxter

I'm not a member of the Chomsky cult, if such a thing exists, however, I was stopped short by the following statement, which you put in direct quotes -

"I'm only going to deal with US crimes" becomes "the only real crimes are US crimes"

Is this actually a direct quote from Chomsky? I would really like to know.

Mick Hartley

Joe,

No, sorry, they're not direct quotes from Chomsky, rather my precis of the slide in his approach. If you think the quotation marks implied that these were direct quotes, (and put like that, it does seem a fair assumption) then I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

Combustible Boy

It's no exaggeration, by the way, to say that Chomsky tends to see people who disagree with him as morally deficient, since he often argues his case in terms of what he calls "moral truisms" (just search in Google for Chomsky and "moral truisms" sometime), seemingly blind to the way many people see the concept of a truism as a question-begging logical short-circuit...

Ellen1910

Years before Alterman wrote his best seller there was Chomsky and Herman's The Myth of the Liberal Media. Yes; Alterman makes an effort to control his polemical tendencies, and Chomsky lets his run free. But is Chomsky so wrong?

Is it enough to point out a red herring, to knock down a strawman as Alterman does? Is it not necessary to go further -- to argue that the NYT and WaPo are myth makers, that they are the expression of the superstructure of a conservative society, that they promote anomie and marginalize the impulse to community all to the principal benefit of the upper class? And this, Chomsky does.

Yes; le style c'est l'homme. And here, Chomsky (he doesn't suffer opponents lightly) doesn't help his cause. But to call him a leader of a cult seems, at least to me, overdone.

Jurjen

Chomsky may not be a cult leader (I don't think he is, and I don't that's what Mick is alleging), but he undeniably has a cult following.

That said, I can't help but feel that the characterisation of "the liberal media" is a bit of a "No True Scotsman" fallacy; a deliberate obfuscation of the distinction between "the media, who are liberal" and "the media who are liberal." That comma makes all the difference. From what I understand of Chomsky, however, he commits the same fallacy only going the other way.

Interesting analysis, Mick, and quite compelling.

Ellen1910

On our side of the pond "the liberal media" is not an obfuscation (and I do understand if not take Jurjen's point) but rather, a term of art.

The New York Times and the Washington Post are, among elite political discussants, held to be liberal if not left-leaning papers [I don't believe I'm wrong in thinking that the overwhelming majority of liberals think the Times is centrist and the Washington Post is right of center]. The rest of the media is, of course, below the salt (is that how you say it?).

With no liberal media the fulcrum of our discourse is right of right of center.

Steve

Mark,

Let me suggest that you have not laid a single substantive charge against Chomsky's writings on US foreign policy.

For all that are intersted, check out this amazing debate between Chomsky and Richard Perle in 1988. The debate is ferocious, as they each go after the other with great vigour. By the end of the debate Chomsky has factually destroyed the dreamlike vision of US foreign policy that Perle articulated. The crowd gives Chomsky repeated ovations while occasionally booing Perle. Makes for great listening. Here's the link:

http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=8409

Roger Cohen

Mick,

I must concur with Steve. Your comments on Chomsky are essentially rambling impressions. You reference nothing that Chomsky has actually said or written, and much of what you write here are rehashed, warmed over charges that are made against Chomsky routinely. I am not Chomsky "cultist" and I find, like you, his seemingly singular emphasis on US crimes and atrocities problematic. But if you are going to take on Chomsky, I'd advise you do so in a scholarly and better-researched fashion. This, of course, require doing some homework, and hard work, both of which are sorely lacking in the blogosphere.

Mick H

Roger (and Steve),

Sorry, but I wasn't trying for a definitive point-by-point rebuttal of Chomsky. His arguments, many of them, are perfectly fine as far as they go. What I'm saying is, by totally ignoring the context (the cold war, the fight against terrorism, etc.), his charges lose a great deal of their force. It's like describing a boxing match by concentrating on only one boxer. It's not wrong, but as a description of what's going on it's useless.

Roger Cohen

Useless? All but Chomsky's most virulent detractors concede that his critiques raise important questions. And Chomsky remains one of the world's foremost social critics, respected by fellow intellectuals but also by less educated people around the globe. Useless? I guess one of the beauties of a blog is you can say just about anything. I'd recommend you get out some more, and I mean out of the country, where in parts of the world, Chomsky is regarded not only as a great thinker, but a hero. And I do not mean a "cult" hero.

Roger Cohen

Mick: Allow me to make a larger point here. I found your commentary on Chomsky when a writer at "Full Context" referred to it as a "definitive" critique. You are clearly a thoughtful and intelligent person, but has our understanding of language and our intellectual rigor become so debased that your rambling, unsubstantiated commentary on Chomsky could, with a straight face, be referred to as "definitive"? Your comments are essentially the same remarks that friends have made to me at a bar or at a ballgame when the conversation turned to politics. This is rather like saying, "I was standing at a bar the other night and I overheard this guy offer the definitive critque of Noam Chomsky." This is laughable, and yet this is the very type of "authority" that a blog confers, I guess. A "definitive" critique of a major intellectual without a single footnote; with nary a quote or reference to any of the subject's actual work? And then to see the work of such a major intellectual force dismissed by said blogger as "useless"? I am no "fan" of Chomsky, and if I were, that fact would be irrelevant. But if I am going to take on a heavyweight like this professor, I sure would do a good deal of homework --- despite the paltry standards of intellectual demanded by blogs.

Steve

Mick,

I think you are misreading Chomsky, or perhaps not reading him at all. Chomsky goes to great lengths to show how more often than not, US leaders used the Cold war as a pretext for their aggressive actions. He demonstrates this by citing internal declassified government documents, quoting policy planners at length and by contrasting US actions before the Cold War and after the Cold War with their actions during the Cold War. Chomsky convincingly shows that there is very little difference!

If you haven't read Hegemony or Survival yet, you probably should. It's one of the most important books on foreign policy that has come out recently.

Roger Cohen

Chomsky has also written very critically about the Soviet empire, particularly the invasion of Afghanistan. He also at least once called Iraq one of the world's worst terror states. And has written very critically about the corruption of Palestinian leadership. None of this fits into the cartoon-character Chomsky. To say he limits his attacks to the US is not to have read him enough.

Rajeev Advani

Roger Cohen is referring to my posting on www.fullcontext.com. Yes, I called your article "definitive" - a bit rash - but I maintain that your article is the single most eloquent piece on the driving forces behind "Chomskyism". But Roger Cohen wants rigor. To that end a pet project on my website has been the exposure of blatant factual misrepresentations promulgated by Mr. Chomsky. I've been tardy in this project, but now feel newly inspired to resume. For what many forget - especially the grudging admirers of Chomsky - is that arguments aside, he is one of the most intellectually dishonest writers alive.

Steve

Rajeev your post is a joke. You responded to a post requesting substantive proof for your charges and responded with more empty rhetoric.

As for Mic's piece being the "single most eloquent piece on the driving forces behind "Chomskyism," the only thing one can presume is that you must not read very much. Chomsky has far more eloquent and substantive critics, although they, also, are unconvincing.

Why don't you watch the Chomsky - Perle debate and let us know what you disagree with.

Rajeev Advani

Steve - it does not matter to me if Chomsky can defeat Perle in a debate of policy. What matters to me is that Chomsky is a propagandist skilled at bodyguarding his claims with mountains of falsified evidence. I certainly don't disagree with everything Chomsky has written - I consider myself one of the left - but Chomsky's full ideology is a desperate one, and Mic's essay captures that. I did not respond with empty rhetoric - I responded that I would resume a project of documenting Chomsky's misrepresentations. Much has been documented already, as I'm sure you know, which lends much credibility to my accusation of dishonesty. Try Russil Wvong's site for an introduction here:

http://www.geocities.com/rwvong/future/chomsky.html

Rajeev Advani

Not to belabor the point, but in response to Steve and Roger requesting substantive prove of Chomsky's dishonesty, I've posted an essay detailing Chomsky's deceptions in the handling of the work of Amartya Sen with regard to India.

http://www.fullcontext.com/archives/000100.html

This is but one case out of many.

Mick Hartley

Thanks for the links Rajeev. I liked your piece on Amartya Sen. Haven't read the Russil Wvong essay yet, but I will do.

the noticer

you wrote: -- When Chomsky is asked why, in his political writings, he deals only with the US and its crimes, his response is along the lines of, well, that's what I do, I write about the US because I'm an American, it's what interests me. It's the most powerful country in the world. If you want to read criticism of other countries, you can read it anywhere: the mainstream press is full of it. Well yes, that seems fair enough. But what happens here, as with his Cartesian linguistics, is that a methodological decision, to confine himself to criticism of the US, has hardened into a vision of reality. "I'm only going to deal with US crimes" becomes "the only real crimes are US crimes". --

is this your main point? because this is just false as huge numbers of people are perfectly well aware and anybody can easily determine by doing a tiny bit of research. Chomsky has explained his reasons for focusing on the crimes of the USA probably thousands of times in public over the last 35 plus years.. and his reasoning is uncomplicated and clear. he says he does so because it is his basic moral responsibility to focus on the crimes he is partly responsible for, the crimes he can most easily prevent. whether you believe him or not, your account of his continuously stated motivations is just totally false. to put that distortion at the center of your argument is just silly.

and as for the cult thing - another irony - the real common thread between Chomsky's linguistics and his politics is that he is sort of a nativist. he believes that all humans have an inherent linguistic potential inside them as well as an inherent anti-authoritarian morality - just like all cheetahs have inherent running potential and birds have inherent flying potential, though all of these potentialites can be crushed by force. his thinking does indeed flow from these basic ideas - but these ideas are: 1) so commonly held that it is silly to attribute them to Chomsky, and 2) are anti-elitist right off the bat - identifying language and morality as traits of the species rather than as accomplishments of the exceptional few. when you say "cult" - it's hard to understand what that means in the absence of any authoritarian tendency or belief system. maybe your usage of "cult" just refers to an instance of free association that you don't like, for whatever unstated reasons, political or otherwise.

of course Chomsky should be questioned and criticized. but people should be clear about their real reasons. i don't like his stardom for example, because i don't like stardom in general, and i think his voluntary stardom is inconsistent with his anti-elitist principles. i have even debated Chomsky briefly on a different topic (“primitivism”) in an internet forum though i admit to being very influenced by his work more or less in the same way that other normal readers are.

i think the most obvious "explanation" for Chomsky's huge influence is immediately obvious to anyone who checks out his work: the man has simply done huge amounts of meticulous work - more hard work in his chosen areas than almost anybody else - and he makes his political ideas simple and clear. i think anybody who accomplishes these two things in a free society is likely to achieve some recognition and influence, regardless of their politics. even you. obviously almost nobody has the time or the inclination to do as much work as Chomsky has done but he did it and it shouldn’t surprise anyone that it has effects. it’s again ironic that people who search for alternative explanations and theories have so little belief in the intellectual culture they believe they are defending.

if people are not clear about this they should really check out how much work this guy has really done.

also: Clinton bombed a medicine factory in Sudan, not Libya.

Mick H

Noticer (?) - yes you're right - it was Sudan not Libya.

オンラインカジノ

I like your site. Hello from Japan.

Adam Cooper

Hi Mick
You're obviously well-read, to the point of being a little dangerous... in that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, e.g. Skinner *was* a behaviourist, one of the original, not behaviourist-lite. I know that because I studied psychology for 12 years. Which makes me question the authority with which you speak on the other areas... my bone of contention here rests with your analysis of 'Chomsky as cult-leader-lite'. You state (I'm paraphrasing - another stock Chomsky phrase) that Chomksy is a bit of a cultist because he treats those who challenge him as if they are morally deficient. You go on to elaborate this with a bunch of prose, while failing to recognise that (from my experience) when people challenge Chomsky they tend to do so without recourse to evidence. A bit like yourself, no less. I see no evidence substantiating the claims you make about Chomsky or anything else in the article. Unlike Chomsky yours is simply a bunch of claims - no quotes, no citations, in short no evidence - just "what you think". It's no wonder then, that a man who has spent years researching evidence on issues, is contemptuous of at times very vitriolic attacks on his argument when the challenge comes 'evidence-lite'.

best wishes
Adam

Jake

You have every right to disagree with Chomsky, and the onyl links I see here have so far been people disagreeing with the conclusions he draws. Have fun, but realize this is in no way a refuation of his work, but only a disagreement.

ArekExcelsior

Yeah, I think this is rather simplistic too. Chomsky doesn't JUST say "I'm an American, so I focus on America"; he instead says that our primary focus should be on the behavior that we can do something to stop and that we are responsible for. I end up muttering this personal responsbility mantra quite a bit, but it's important to remember completely. That is, when we focus on how crappy things are in the Sudan, while that is surely appropriate for edification, it's not totally relevant unless we plan on doing something about it, not nearly as relevant as questioning the pharmaceutical plant bombing or domestic policy here or whatever else. People can disagree with Chomsky, but I've read everything in my years as a high school debater, and I can tell you that not only is Chomsky the most consistent and intellectually satisfying critic I've read, he also has mountains of evidence that he uses VERY carefully. Case in point: In Heg/Survival, he cites Grossman and Mitchell on space militarization. I ran space mil as a case in the 2001-2002 topic. Grossman and Mitchell not only say what Chomsky says, they say it even more stridently and say even more controversial and terrifying things. Chomsky could have leapt up and down as we did in debate rounds with the infamous "orbiting death stars" quote and the "micro-waved cities of grilled dead people" quote, but he instead was very measured in the analysis he made and stuck only to things he felt he could justify based on some other prima facia plausibility evidence.

Oh, and Raj, I read your blog on Sen and Chomsky. Thoroughly underwhelming.

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